JaneQSmythe
Well-known member
PPG declined to engage your question but I will.
Spin-Off-Thread: Oral Sex
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PPG declined to engage your question but I will.
JaneQSmythe
Well-known member
There are some sexual acts that I engage in because I personally enjoy them for myself and others that I am willing to engage in because my partner enjoys them and I like to see them enjoy themselves.
I know women who LOVE to give BJs, most of them cite the feeling of power and control as being one of the biggest turn-ons. They feel that this is something that they are good at, and they like to turn their men into putty and drive them crazy.
Meh, not really my thing (I have other ways that I prefer to drive my guys crazy). It doesn't do anything to personally turn ME on (kind of like I am indifferent to dick pics - your junk is just not pretty). I do enjoy pleasing my partner but I have limits. Dude likes to stretch any sexual encounter out as long as possible, including BJs - I don't have the stamina for that - my jaw gets tired and I find myself getting irritated. MrS has the grace to take it for the gift that it is and knows that I prefer to keep it short and sweet, he comes easily for me and always returns the favor (with an expert skill level I might add
- he's had lots of practice.)
Now, I LOVE receiving oral sex - love, love, love it. So it is only fair that I be willing to reciprocate. I think that where women get pissed and feel shitty is when men expect/demand oral sex and then refuse to return the favor - we feel used and unappreciated. Look, I understand that at different times in our cycle we may be tastier than others but, come on, get some strawberry lube and whipped cream and take one for the team men.
(Interestingly, I am MUCH more turned on by (and skilled at) performing oral on women. Can eat THAT up all day long. Whether or not I get some back, go figure)
I know women who LOVE to give BJs, most of them cite the feeling of power and control as being one of the biggest turn-ons. They feel that this is something that they are good at, and they like to turn their men into putty and drive them crazy.
Meh, not really my thing (I have other ways that I prefer to drive my guys crazy). It doesn't do anything to personally turn ME on (kind of like I am indifferent to dick pics - your junk is just not pretty). I do enjoy pleasing my partner but I have limits. Dude likes to stretch any sexual encounter out as long as possible, including BJs - I don't have the stamina for that - my jaw gets tired and I find myself getting irritated. MrS has the grace to take it for the gift that it is and knows that I prefer to keep it short and sweet, he comes easily for me and always returns the favor (with an expert skill level I might add
- he's had lots of practice.)Now, I LOVE receiving oral sex - love, love, love it. So it is only fair that I be willing to reciprocate. I think that where women get pissed and feel shitty is when men expect/demand oral sex and then refuse to return the favor - we feel used and unappreciated. Look, I understand that at different times in our cycle we may be tastier than others but, come on, get some strawberry lube and whipped cream and take one for the team men
.(Interestingly, I am MUCH more turned on by (and skilled at) performing oral on women. Can eat THAT up all day long. Whether or not I get some back, go figure
)There might be various reasons for people not wanting oral.
Personally, for me oral sex used to be one of my biggest PTSD triggers. Both giving and receiving. Hubby has worked with me on it over the years, so it doesn't trigger me as much as it used to, but it's still far from my favorite thing and I tend to avoid it as much as possible. I have to be in the right kind of mood to give, and it takes a LOT for me to be comfortable receiving.
I've had a few guys who got horribly offended when I refused to suck their dicks. Needless to say, I didn't see any of them again. I have the right to refuse to do whatever I'm unwilling to do, and to have partners who accept that.
(I haven't seen the thread this is a spin-off from, so I'm just responding to the idea of why or why not oral sex in general.)
Personally, for me oral sex used to be one of my biggest PTSD triggers. Both giving and receiving. Hubby has worked with me on it over the years, so it doesn't trigger me as much as it used to, but it's still far from my favorite thing and I tend to avoid it as much as possible. I have to be in the right kind of mood to give, and it takes a LOT for me to be comfortable receiving.
I've had a few guys who got horribly offended when I refused to suck their dicks. Needless to say, I didn't see any of them again. I have the right to refuse to do whatever I'm unwilling to do, and to have partners who accept that.
(I haven't seen the thread this is a spin-off from, so I'm just responding to the idea of why or why not oral sex in general.)
JaneQSmythe
Well-known member
Sorry, KC43, my bad - I linked one way but not the other. This is a spin-off from the Struggling with Size thread. Someone expressed that being asked to GIVE oral favors to someone who refused to give them back made them feels shitty.
I totally agree that you are by no means OBLIGATED to engage in ANY act that you don't want to. But if you ASK me to do a thing that I am not really into for YOU, then is it really too much for me to ask you to do a thing that you are not really into for ME? Tit for Tat. (I'm talking regular turn-ons/turn-offs ... PTSD and triggers obviously trump preferences - Dude likes to be choked at times, if someone puts their hands on the front of my neck I will claw their eyes out, bite their ears off and pulverize their gonads trying to get away).
For me - I am not into anal. Under no circumstances is anyone going to put a penis or a dildo up my butt. Super-squick. I have really no interest in playing with someone else's asshole either but, I can do it FOR someone, even if I don't want it for myself.
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Thanks for the link. I haven't been on here much lately, and apparently I've been missing things...
I get what you're saying about doing things for your partner even if you aren't into them yourself. For me, giving oral is one of those things--*if* I'm in a headspace where I know it won't trigger me, and if I'm asked. I almost never take initiative to offer it, even if I know my partner would absolutely love just the fact that I offered.
Thinking about it... I don't usually go tit for tat, because I'm still not comfortable asking for anything sexual. That's something I'm working on, but sometimes I'm not entirely sure *what* I want, only what I don't want. But yeah, I definitely agree with the logic of "If I do something you like, you can do something I like."
I get what you're saying about doing things for your partner even if you aren't into them yourself. For me, giving oral is one of those things--*if* I'm in a headspace where I know it won't trigger me, and if I'm asked. I almost never take initiative to offer it, even if I know my partner would absolutely love just the fact that I offered.
Thinking about it... I don't usually go tit for tat, because I'm still not comfortable asking for anything sexual. That's something I'm working on, but sometimes I'm not entirely sure *what* I want, only what I don't want. But yeah, I definitely agree with the logic of "If I do something you like, you can do something I like."
PinkPig
Well-known member
I enjoy giving....more so to men than women, but I do enjoy both. I can't say that it turns me on because sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't....just depends on the person and my frame of mind. I love receiving but I don't score keep. If I give, I'm not expecting to receive, though I'll gladly take if offered Honestly, I really wouldn't enjoy receiving if I knew the person was reluctantly giving so would prefer you not offer if you obviously dislike doing it.
The exception to the score keeping would be if a guy expects that I give every single time we're sexual but he's never willing to give, that gets old quick. And yes, I've had that happen.
Honestly, I really wouldn't enjoy receiving if I knew the person was reluctantly giving so would prefer you not offer if you obviously dislike doing it. The exception to the score keeping would be if a guy expects that I give every single time we're sexual but he's never willing to give, that gets old quick. And yes, I've had that happen.
vinsanity0
Active member
I get what Marcus is saying. It doesn't have to be about taste or whatever. I really enjoy giving oral. If I have a partner that I am not enthusiastic about giving oral to, I see that as indicative of some other problem. It may even be a subconscious problem, but it will cause me to re-examine things.
Example: When MK and I were married 34 years ago I really enjoyed going down on her. Not so much the second time around. In the end we just weren't that compatible, even if she was good at oral herself.
For the "just do it" camp. We can tell if you are not really into it. I think I'd rather not get a blowjob than to get one from someone who wasn't into it (unless it was part of a bdsm scene).
Cat was never that enthusiastic about doing it. I used to think she was selfish. It turned out she didn't think she was any good at it because I didn't cum the instant her mouth was on me. It turned out there were a lot of things we never communicated well. Once we figured that out, things were much better.
Elle isn't that enthusiastic about receiving, which is very disappointing. I think knowing this dampens my enthusiasm as well.
Example: When MK and I were married 34 years ago I really enjoyed going down on her. Not so much the second time around. In the end we just weren't that compatible, even if she was good at oral herself.
For the "just do it" camp. We can tell if you are not really into it. I think I'd rather not get a blowjob than to get one from someone who wasn't into it (unless it was part of a bdsm scene).
Cat was never that enthusiastic about doing it. I used to think she was selfish. It turned out she didn't think she was any good at it because I didn't cum the instant her mouth was on me. It turned out there were a lot of things we never communicated well. Once we figured that out, things were much better.
Elle isn't that enthusiastic about receiving, which is very disappointing. I think knowing this dampens my enthusiasm as well.
Marcus
Well-known member
Tit for Tat?
Stuff like this makes me paranoid about asking someone to do anything. The very last thing I want to experience is someone trudging through an activity just because I asked. If you aren't into it, don't do it, PLEASE!
The whole concept of tit for tat when it comes to voluntary association doesn't make any sense to me. This is true if we are talking about exchanging oral sex or who is getting attention on OKCupid and who isn't (very common tit for tat discussion on these boards).
Tit for tat is a logistical concern, like who gets to use a shared car and how often, how much rent are each of us paying, and who watches the kids on what night, how many pieces do each of us get at the start of a checkers game, etc. When it comes to anything other than logistical concerns I don't see that it brings value to my life, in fact it is quite the opposite. I prefer to interact in ways that are authentic, and knowing that my partner is keeping score and wanting me to do something because I am falling behind on points is about as inauthentic as I can imagine something fun being.
I like giving oral, for most of the women I've been with it has been a fundamental way for me to bring pleasure and express my interest in them sexually. This has nothing to do with whether or not THEY like to give oral. I conceptually get why people link them together, but it doesn't seem like a very constructive way to approach something as great as sex.
Stuff like this makes me paranoid about asking someone to do anything. The very last thing I want to experience is someone trudging through an activity just because I asked. If you aren't into it, don't do it, PLEASE!
The whole concept of tit for tat when it comes to voluntary association doesn't make any sense to me. This is true if we are talking about exchanging oral sex or who is getting attention on OKCupid and who isn't (very common tit for tat discussion on these boards).
Tit for tat is a logistical concern, like who gets to use a shared car and how often, how much rent are each of us paying, and who watches the kids on what night, how many pieces do each of us get at the start of a checkers game, etc. When it comes to anything other than logistical concerns I don't see that it brings value to my life, in fact it is quite the opposite. I prefer to interact in ways that are authentic, and knowing that my partner is keeping score and wanting me to do something because I am falling behind on points is about as inauthentic as I can imagine something fun being.
I like giving oral, for most of the women I've been with it has been a fundamental way for me to bring pleasure and express my interest in them sexually. This has nothing to do with whether or not THEY like to give oral. I conceptually get why people link them together, but it doesn't seem like a very constructive way to approach something as great as sex.
Spork
Active member
Great post, Marcus.
I completely agree that scorekeeping isn't healthy, in a relationship. Sometimes it is a natural impulse, I think, for people to do...in the spirit of feeling insecurities, for instance. But it's something one should try to think and talk about.
Like, my lover is so, so giving, that I often feel that the scale is tipped way far into my own pleasure, and I worry if he is getting enough. I feel like I need to try harder. Yet sometimes the bottom line is that our bodies work differently, and getting me off is so much easier...this has been the case not only with Zen, but with women I've been with (not many men)...where me trying to please them, even with a lot of direction and a will and desire to do anything they wanted, was challenging, far more so than stimulating me to the point of exhausted satiety.
Far more common in my experience, has been the encounter where the man was only concerned with "doing it" for his own pleasure, and at best his ego required him to ask if I enjoyed what he did or got off...but he didn't do anything particularly pleasing for me, did not pay attention to my body or responses, and assumed that if he "was good" it would just happen magically. Some would take it personally if it happened or not as a stroke for or against their ego, without having done anything but get theirs...and some went after their own pleasure with no care if I got mine at all. That is a large majority of male, vanilla partners.
I do not feel that direct scorekeeping "tit for tat" behavior is necessary or good...but I like that any and all participants are interested in making one another feel good. Communication and basic compatibility help so much there. If a woman really needs to receive oral attention to feel that her partner is engaged in her experience, she might want to negotiate that before getting involved in a sexual relationship with someone. I know that "normal people" don't really do a ton of that, but it would probably help.
To the basic topic itself:
I often love to "give" particularly with male partners, but not in the sense that many people do that activity. Many women like to feel in control, or do not want a man to touch them on the head...I much prefer a man who is active in it, and who is in control. But then I tend to the bottom/sub side of typical sexual power dynamics anyhow in what pleases me (though I've been on the other side of the slash, I know what I tend to enjoy more.) I want my male partner to hold my hair and move his body, not just lie there.
When it comes to receiving, previously I wasn't enjoying it much, even though I've had some enthusiastic men who wanted me to...they were too gentle for the most part, and could not stick with one method long enough to get anywhere, and I was too inhibited about giving feedback (which is probably the biggest problem.) Not so now. And while I love it now from Zen, I still prefer what he does with his hands. Both at the same time is very, very good though.
I completely agree that scorekeeping isn't healthy, in a relationship. Sometimes it is a natural impulse, I think, for people to do...in the spirit of feeling insecurities, for instance. But it's something one should try to think and talk about.
Like, my lover is so, so giving, that I often feel that the scale is tipped way far into my own pleasure, and I worry if he is getting enough. I feel like I need to try harder. Yet sometimes the bottom line is that our bodies work differently, and getting me off is so much easier...this has been the case not only with Zen, but with women I've been with (not many men)...where me trying to please them, even with a lot of direction and a will and desire to do anything they wanted, was challenging, far more so than stimulating me to the point of exhausted satiety.
Far more common in my experience, has been the encounter where the man was only concerned with "doing it" for his own pleasure, and at best his ego required him to ask if I enjoyed what he did or got off...but he didn't do anything particularly pleasing for me, did not pay attention to my body or responses, and assumed that if he "was good" it would just happen magically. Some would take it personally if it happened or not as a stroke for or against their ego, without having done anything but get theirs...and some went after their own pleasure with no care if I got mine at all. That is a large majority of male, vanilla partners.
I do not feel that direct scorekeeping "tit for tat" behavior is necessary or good...but I like that any and all participants are interested in making one another feel good. Communication and basic compatibility help so much there. If a woman really needs to receive oral attention to feel that her partner is engaged in her experience, she might want to negotiate that before getting involved in a sexual relationship with someone. I know that "normal people" don't really do a ton of that, but it would probably help.
To the basic topic itself:
I often love to "give" particularly with male partners, but not in the sense that many people do that activity. Many women like to feel in control, or do not want a man to touch them on the head...I much prefer a man who is active in it, and who is in control. But then I tend to the bottom/sub side of typical sexual power dynamics anyhow in what pleases me (though I've been on the other side of the slash, I know what I tend to enjoy more.) I want my male partner to hold my hair and move his body, not just lie there.
When it comes to receiving, previously I wasn't enjoying it much, even though I've had some enthusiastic men who wanted me to...they were too gentle for the most part, and could not stick with one method long enough to get anywhere, and I was too inhibited about giving feedback (which is probably the biggest problem.) Not so now. And while I love it now from Zen, I still prefer what he does with his hands. Both at the same time is very, very good though.
opalescent
Active member
I think that the 'tit for tat' concept about oral is often used as kind of a shorthand for if a man is actually interested in giving his female partner pleasure. I think that is why so many men in dating or other contexts highlight how much they like giving oral. It stands in for 'I care about your pleasure and want you to come too!'
There was a recent study done of orgasms and gender. The results were that straight men had the most orgasms of any gender and orientation. Straight women had the least. Lesbian women had more orgasms than straight women (and bi women too if I recall correctly) but less than straight or gay/bi men. Basically all women had less orgasms than all men. (Trans* and non-binary identities and experiences were not mentioned in this study.)
Anecdotes back up this study. Many women have had sexual experiences with men where men's pleasure was the focus and their own, not so much, or at all.
So while an actual tit for tat is really bad for relationships, Marcus is right on about that, I think this whole discussion is actually about prioritizing women's pleasure when with a male partner and the cultural difficulties around that.
I like giving oral to people with penises. I do not like to gag so unless I can do so without gagging, I don't deep throat. I know that the face fucking/gagging/drooling thing is very popular now with many men (porn is definitely to blame for this one), but I just don't enjoy it. If I can bring someone to orgasm with oral, I will and I enjoy doing that. I like when men come in my mouth. However, many of the men I've been with take a really long time to come with oral and manual stimulation. I just can't give a blowjob for 45 minutes or longer. So I don't. If my jaw starts to hurt, I'm gonna switch to something else awesome.
Somewhat ironically for someone who spent much of my life as a lesbian, I'm not as fond of giving cunnilingus. It's really not my favorite thing to give. I will do it but I have to admit I'm really sensitive to smell and that can be an issue. Even a healthy smell can bother me. I feel rather lame about it but there it is. One of my exes had little to no sense of smell and he was a champ at oral. I have to think that helped. And, no I am not implying there is anything inherently wrong with how women smell. This is purely my own sensitivity.
I enjoy receiving oral but it rarely gets me to orgasm on its own. I almost always need penetration or vibration or something else. So someone bragging about their proficiency in oral is nice but not necessary a 'close the deal' thing for me
There was a recent study done of orgasms and gender. The results were that straight men had the most orgasms of any gender and orientation. Straight women had the least. Lesbian women had more orgasms than straight women (and bi women too if I recall correctly) but less than straight or gay/bi men. Basically all women had less orgasms than all men. (Trans* and non-binary identities and experiences were not mentioned in this study.)
Anecdotes back up this study. Many women have had sexual experiences with men where men's pleasure was the focus and their own, not so much, or at all.
So while an actual tit for tat is really bad for relationships, Marcus is right on about that, I think this whole discussion is actually about prioritizing women's pleasure when with a male partner and the cultural difficulties around that.
I like giving oral to people with penises. I do not like to gag so unless I can do so without gagging, I don't deep throat. I know that the face fucking/gagging/drooling thing is very popular now with many men (porn is definitely to blame for this one), but I just don't enjoy it. If I can bring someone to orgasm with oral, I will and I enjoy doing that. I like when men come in my mouth. However, many of the men I've been with take a really long time to come with oral and manual stimulation. I just can't give a blowjob for 45 minutes or longer. So I don't. If my jaw starts to hurt, I'm gonna switch to something else awesome.
Somewhat ironically for someone who spent much of my life as a lesbian, I'm not as fond of giving cunnilingus. It's really not my favorite thing to give. I will do it but I have to admit I'm really sensitive to smell and that can be an issue. Even a healthy smell can bother me. I feel rather lame about it but there it is. One of my exes had little to no sense of smell and he was a champ at oral. I have to think that helped. And, no I am not implying there is anything inherently wrong with how women smell. This is purely my own sensitivity.
I enjoy receiving oral but it rarely gets me to orgasm on its own. I almost always need penetration or vibration or something else. So someone bragging about their proficiency in oral is nice but not necessary a 'close the deal' thing for me
Spork
Active member
I think that many men mean that, when they say that, and that is the spirit in which I took the "tit for tat" sentiments. However, I've actually been annoyed with men for bragging about being all about giving oral, because (previously) I just wasn't a fan of receiving it, or because I felt their ego was coming into it too much, which put me off, or because I felt they were being servile or even submissive, and that puts me off in a man. Prefer to get the sense that a man is going to be able to read ME and figure ME out and learn to work MY mechanisms. Get into my head and master my body. Now THAT is sexy. I kind of hate when men are all, "I am good at pleasing women." Hm...ok, but are you good at pleasing me? Without an understanding that women are highly variable in many ways, it isn't likely.
Yes, and I think the book "Come As You Are" should be more widely read. Increasing women's enjoyment of sex is not as simple as men giving oral more often. It's a bit complicated, I think. Has to do with a lot of conditioning and inhibitions, women being able to communicate and be expressive without shame, and everybody involved having sort of a willingness to put in a team effort to get there. I think that women have to be part of the solution to this problem, and "blame" should never be laid all at the feet of men for these statistical realities. If society and culture are a big part of the problem...that includes us, too. Let's all be part of the solution, I figure.
I've tried to use the "toothbrush trick" to condition my gag reflex to be less sensitive. A sideshow performing sword swallower taught me this. Each day, when you brush your teeth, you brush your tongue. Go exactly as far back as it takes to make you feel like you're going to gag, and continue for a count of ten if possible, but don't go further back than the very edge of the trigger area. Gradually that spot will be further back. This can be done multiple times a day. Also, people's gag reflexes are more sensitive in the morning, than at night, usually.
Now in my case, I have not been truly consistent with my efforts, and have not achieved perfect results. I do still gag. But it's what I call a "controlled" gag, where I can get myself under control and not feel I'm at risk of vomiting. This is ok if it happens a few times, spaced out, but if my partner is really just being too aggressive in a persistent way, I may have to stop him. I definitely still have my limits.
I've also noted that men seem to like "sloppy." I've been happy to discover this, because it means I don't have to be self conscious about looking "pretty" while I'm doing that...if he likes it, he likes it, I guess. But I damn sure do not want to watch videos of that or see pictures or vid of myself doing it, NO THANK YOU. It just looks gross and ugly to me. But again, I'll accept if he likes what he likes, and that is drool and tears and dishevelment, ok then... I don't want to see it, but it's nice to not have to worry about it.
I am lucky I guess, I like women's scent, and I don't even have a problem with menstruation. I have a very sensitive nose, but I'm not easily squicked. (And men can be funky, too!) But I have other issues when it comes to sex with women. Mainly...the initiation energy. "Come As You Are" talks about spontaneous versus responsive desire. I'm usually pretty responsive, as are many women. If I am hesitant and waiting for a push into sexytime, and she is, too...or if she is shy and self conscious and says "no, not now" I am not going to push. Not at all. I don't have much "push" in me these days. I used to but not now. Some of my experiences with women were threesomes where we focused on the men, Fire and I didn't have a lot of sex, but she has done stuff to me more than I've done to her. Really involved sex with women, for me, has been extremely rare and a long time ago. Men are just...easier. They seem to want it more... ??
(Every time I've ever said this to a straight man, he's said, "TELL ME ABOUT IT." lol)
opalescent
Active member
I too have been annoyed at men for bragging about oral, especially if they say they can give oral for 'hours'. I don't believe them. No you cannot give oral for hours without a break. I've also been annoyed with lesbians who brag about giving oral. Possession of a vagina does not automatically confer mad oral skills. I am with you in wanting partners who are focused on learning about me and not some generic person.
Ironically, I've found the (mostly) men who are really into 'giving' me orgasms to be rather annoying. One would think the opposite. But they seem to get so wrapped up in their own ego stroking about giving me multiple orgasms that they forget to actually connect with me. I don't need someone else to 'give' me orgasms. I can do that on my own. What I want from partnered sex is connection. While I don't have problems with orgasm as the 'goal' of sex, I find I really want to focus on pleasure and orgasm as connecting things rather than as goal posts or ego boosts.
I do blame patriarchy and men's overall entitlement for this situation. I don't blame individual men. The privileging of men's pleasure and sexuality is not accidental. While there was no mastermind saying 'men shall come a lot' and 'women not so much', the social and cultural situation we are in now was shaped by millennia of men's experiences, desires, and sexuality being more important than women's. I acknowledge that patriarchy is extremely harmful to men. For example, the limiting of emotional expression to a narrow range in Western culture is one reason men do not live as long as women. (Note, this is my opinion not proven fact but I think it's a reasonable assumption.) Who benefits from a system tells you a lot about who built that system, and why that system is the way it is. The 'orgasm gap' is a rather stark illustration of this. (In the study, 95% of straight men 'always or almost always' came when with a partner (presumably a woman); 64% of straight women 'always or almost always' came with a partner (presumably a man).
I find it quite interesting to see some possible differences in how more submissive or bottom leaning women experience sexuality to how more toppy or dominant women experience the same thing. (I'm switchy in that I top and bottom.) I hate gagging in large part because I hate to vomit. And gagging often leads to vomiting for me. I know there are lots of ways to ease one's gag reflex but I'm just not interested in practicing them. Many people have found them very helpful and that's cool.
I think sex is inherently 'sloppy' and I like that about it. Sloppy blowjobs? Not a problem! But gagging, unable to breathe, vomiting, tears are all problems for me. Ick. I do worry that some people will assume that all blowjobs have to be like in the porn videos with the crying, gagging, runny mascara stereotype. But this is true of any sex act portrayed in porn.
And yeah, men are way easier than women to get in the sack. That's been my experience too. They are more open about their interest generally. I often don't know if a woman is interested in me sexually (although to be fair, I miss most flirtatious hints. It's too subtle for me and I tend to assume that people are not really interested in me anyway.) After dating women exclusively, it was rather refreshing actually!
Ironically, I've found the (mostly) men who are really into 'giving' me orgasms to be rather annoying. One would think the opposite. But they seem to get so wrapped up in their own ego stroking about giving me multiple orgasms that they forget to actually connect with me. I don't need someone else to 'give' me orgasms. I can do that on my own. What I want from partnered sex is connection. While I don't have problems with orgasm as the 'goal' of sex, I find I really want to focus on pleasure and orgasm as connecting things rather than as goal posts or ego boosts.
I do blame patriarchy and men's overall entitlement for this situation. I don't blame individual men. The privileging of men's pleasure and sexuality is not accidental. While there was no mastermind saying 'men shall come a lot' and 'women not so much', the social and cultural situation we are in now was shaped by millennia of men's experiences, desires, and sexuality being more important than women's. I acknowledge that patriarchy is extremely harmful to men. For example, the limiting of emotional expression to a narrow range in Western culture is one reason men do not live as long as women. (Note, this is my opinion not proven fact but I think it's a reasonable assumption.) Who benefits from a system tells you a lot about who built that system, and why that system is the way it is. The 'orgasm gap' is a rather stark illustration of this. (In the study, 95% of straight men 'always or almost always' came when with a partner (presumably a woman); 64% of straight women 'always or almost always' came with a partner (presumably a man).
I find it quite interesting to see some possible differences in how more submissive or bottom leaning women experience sexuality to how more toppy or dominant women experience the same thing. (I'm switchy in that I top and bottom.) I hate gagging in large part because I hate to vomit. And gagging often leads to vomiting for me. I know there are lots of ways to ease one's gag reflex but I'm just not interested in practicing them. Many people have found them very helpful and that's cool.
I think sex is inherently 'sloppy' and I like that about it. Sloppy blowjobs? Not a problem! But gagging, unable to breathe, vomiting, tears are all problems for me. Ick. I do worry that some people will assume that all blowjobs have to be like in the porn videos with the crying, gagging, runny mascara stereotype. But this is true of any sex act portrayed in porn.
And yeah, men are way easier than women to get in the sack. That's been my experience too. They are more open about their interest generally. I often don't know if a woman is interested in me sexually (although to be fair, I miss most flirtatious hints. It's too subtle for me and I tend to assume that people are not really interested in me anyway.) After dating women exclusively, it was rather refreshing actually!
Ravenscroft
Banned
Nonsense -- just takes practice.
My first lover (we began as utter virgins) would take a while to "unwind." A few months along, she expressed worry that she was "taking too long," & somehow thus inconveniencing me, so to reassure her I set a timer. Far as we could tell, it wasn't unusual that she'd take 40+ minutes to reach that first orgasm.Sure, if she was in the mood, I'd happily stay down for more than an hour. But "hours & hours"? Nah -- nerves eventually do numb out.
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As for the "giving &/or receiving" debacle... well, compare to plain ol' kissing. here's people that I want to kiss... there's those I don't mind kissing, & the ones I'm willing to kiss. In my experience there's been women whose genitals were a pleasant brief visit & those from which I was always reluctant to part -- this had little to do with how I felt about the women emotionally.
There've also been a few who simply didn't enjoy it that much, whether because of my style or their preferences.
And this may sound odd, being a guy & all, but I've had lovers who were so BAD at giving oral that I avoided it. I mean, "total communication" & NO LIES & all that... but how do you tell someone you adore that they... well, suck at sucking?? & their evident sincerity & enthusiasm only makes it kinda depressing?
But it was easy to accept brief contact as affectionate, & thus a turn-on.
Spork
Active member
Nonsense -- just takes practice.
Sure, if she was in the mood, I'd happily stay down for more than an hour. But "hours & hours"? Nah -- nerves eventually do numb out.
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As for the "giving &/or receiving" debacle... well, compare to plain ol' kissing. here's people that I want to kiss... there's those I don't mind kissing, & the ones I'm willing to kiss. In my experience there's been women whose genitals were a pleasant brief visit & those from which I was always reluctant to part -- this had little to do with how I felt about the women emotionally.
There've also been a few who simply didn't enjoy it that much, whether because of my style or their preferences.
And this may sound odd, being a guy & all, but I've had lovers who were so BAD at giving oral that I avoided it. I mean, "total communication" & NO LIES & all that... but how do you tell someone you adore that they... well, suck at sucking?? & their evident sincerity & enthusiasm only makes it kinda depressing?
I want just as much as anyone to be pleasing to my partner.
In fact... So I am thinking of sex with the ex, he used to wish I would give him more direction. But giving him direction put me off because I wanted a more aggressive/Sadistic/Dominant sort of partner and I tried in the vaguest of terms but without a very clear idea of what I needed or how to ask for it, to indicate this. He thought I wanted more biting and growling. God, no. I don't want a growling, humping dog in my bed, dude...I want a man who can calculate the use of strong hands to wring precise sensations out of me, crescendos of pain and pleasure...my ideal is intellectual, sensual, and sadistic, not a mindless animal. But I had not yet experienced what I like, enough to know that I liked it so. I had no idea what to ask for. He had no idea what to give. We just were not all that compatible, even though he was not bad, he was not what I needed.
Later, after we broke up, he told me spitefully the ways in which I failed to please him. Seems despite "getting off" neither of us was having the kind of experience we really wanted. And the inability to communicate what we needed was a factor. Though he has since said that the things I want now, are things he "just can't do" to a woman he loves. So maybe it wouldn't have mattered.
So as for a partner "sucking at sucking." You would be surprised how much variance there is in the techniques that men prefer in receiving, and the techniques that women prefer in giving. I would ALWAYS prefer that a partner give me feedback in regard to this activity, and I will, too. Because odds are, if I "suck" at it then either I'm using techniques that another partner liked and simply need a bit of redirection to adjust what I'm doing...or else I'm running up against a technical issue that could be remedied (maybe a position we're trying is more difficult for a man who has a particular shape/size...it may be as simple as "let's try it with you here, and me there, and see if that's better.")
Most women want a man to never touch the head/hair, and to let them be in control of the process, I prefer to have an active partner who thrusts and grabs hair, it turns me on (but hey...masochist and submissive-ish, so...) and for all the vast huge majority of men wanted me to keep my teeth well out of the action, I found one who was like "bite me. There. Hard. Harder. Ohh...." Imagine my surprise! Also, I love being told what to do.
So I don't know about most gals, but rather than saying "you're doing it wrong" maybe go the route of "let me tell you how I like it."
FallenAngelina
Well-known member
^ THIS ^
This is why I never believe people when they say "I'm a great kisser" or "I'm great at oral." One person's "OMFG" is another person's "She sucks at sucking."
Spork, do "most women" dislike having their head held and being skull fucked? I guess you're saying more women than not have a strong gag reflex and don't deep throat? I am not sure how you know "most women's" preferences.
I tend to date men who LOVE being deep throated, who are glad I can take a cock to the back of my throat and not just mess around with the head and frenulum. I find men like a combination of deep and hard, and more finesse and slow when they get overwhelmed.
As Pixi says, "Breathing is optional." I love intensity and if I gag, I pull off, breathe, but get right back to it. Fun for me. But I'm kinky, not a delicate flower.
I love giving head, it makes me cum, and I don't feel like I've had sex if I don't get to give my partner (M or F) oral.
I tend to date men who LOVE being deep throated, who are glad I can take a cock to the back of my throat and not just mess around with the head and frenulum. I find men like a combination of deep and hard, and more finesse and slow when they get overwhelmed.
As Pixi says, "Breathing is optional." I love intensity and if I gag, I pull off, breathe, but get right back to it. Fun for me. But I'm kinky, not a delicate flower.
I love giving head, it makes me cum, and I don't feel like I've had sex if I don't get to give my partner (M or F) oral.
Spork
Active member
My "most women" comes from threads on (for instance) fetlife where questions like this get asked and you get response after response that says, "don't you dare touch my head"...and from what I've heard from women I've known and from what men have told me they had in feedback, most are surprised when I ASK them to be a bit more active and even aggressive in it.
I think that we're in the minority, on this one, Mags, at least from what I ever heard.
Same as I say "most men" prefer I do not use my teeth...that would be from everything I ever heard, to the point where it surprised me when one wanted that. And not just a light graze, but the full treatment as it were. But hey, CBT is a thing of course. *shrug* I still won't expect it to be common.
Oh. And this thread reminds me of this song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLK20Lmyk-M
Thanks for saying this, I think in society there's a perception that as a woman you 'shouldn't' enjoy this, or anal, or insert-sex-act-apparently-only-enjoyed-by-men here and it's time we stopped all that and accepted that some women do and women are allowed to like what they like