What did I do wrong? Or did I?

kdt26417 said:
Heh, the mysterious wisdom of therapists, eh?

Seriously, it sounds to me like Margaret's doing a good job so far. I think you and Ray both have a ton of baggage to unpack, and Margaret is only working with a limited fixed amount of time once a week. So she has to choose carefully how to use that time, and I think she is drawing on her knowledge and experience to help her decide each step of each session.
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I agree.

In this (last) session, I see her as peeling away the layers of what's happening in the present, and following that train of thought into your childhood and how it relates to the present. In a future session, I bet she will dig into Ray's past. But she's probably not done digging into your past either (if she's as good a therapist as she seems to be).
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I think you are right there.

One thing I've noticed is that Margaret is trying not to tell you what to do. After an entire session with you, her only instruction was for you guys to try to live in the moment. The rest of the session was made up of her asking searching questions, that I think were meant to help you analyze your own past and situation. This is what therapists generally do. They don't try to tell you what to think, they just ask questions that will help you figure stuff out.
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And she does give us both a lot to think about.

It seems clear that it is important to Ray to maintain a positive attitude about life, to not dwell on the negative things, and to not make a big deal out of things and stir up trouble. He likes to be as passive as possible, even though passive people can be passive-aggressive at times (such as delaying things, shutting down emotionally, etc.).
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Ray is the most passive person I have ever met. I don't think that he is the type to want a D/s lifestyle. What I think is that a lot of his thoughts are childlike. I do know that Ray had a couple of really serious head injuries when he was a kid. I think that may have something to do with how and who Ray is today.

I can also see that you suffered a lot of abuse as a kid, much (most?) of it from your sister and oldest brother. You witnessed a marriage between your (adopted) parents that was apparently alternatingly cold/distant and angry/discordant. And you probably learned to associate sex with getting people to love you.
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When I was younger I learned that having sex with others was the best way not to be physically and mentally abused. I also learned that it made me feel good about myself, because I could please others. It taught me that I was worth something, that I had good qualities that other people liked.

Again I am sorry that you went through that abuse and that intense negativity. From your new posts here, I see that it was worse than I had realized.
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Thank you.

I am curious to hear of what path Margaret will follow in the next session, and I feel hopeful that the sessions will pay off in time. Of course you know that this pay-off can only materialize very slowly. Unraveling your (yours and Ray's) past and present will be a painstaking process. The instructions you have to live in the moment this week are probably just as much of an exploratory exercise as they are a therapeutic exercise. Margaret will probably ask you (next week) how you felt when you were trying to stay in the moment and how that affected your interactions.
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I agree, and my next post will tell a little about what I have already learned so far.

I also think Margaret will eventually dig into Ray's thoughts, feelings, and philosophies about sex, because that is a very complex subject and I think it has a huge effect on your relationship with him. He wants to be accomodating when you ask for sex, yet he also sees sex as beneath himself and he wants to remain aloof from it. So when you ask him if he wants to play, he probably has somewhat of a conflict inside. He doesn't know whether to please you or to "remain pure."

All of these things are food for thought, for sure.
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I thank you for all of that food for thought. I do believe that Margaret will get more involved in Ray's past, too. I think that Margaret, yesterday, was trying to get to know me better through knowing where I have been. I think that our sessions with Margaret are going to be beneficial, too. They already have been.
 
(Part one)

Shortly after my last post, the one that I posted at 12:19, I got a text from Scott. I haven't talked with or texted with him for a few days now. So, it was really nice to see that it was him texting me. Scott's text read, "I want to be with you right here right now!"

When I was writing my last post last night, Ray had already gone to bed. After leaving Margaret's office Thursday, Ray and I talked about our session, and we were both a bit confused as to what Margaret was asking us to do. Ray told me that he thought that living in the moment was doing everything without thinking about the past or the future, doing everything at that moment and thinking of just that moment at that time. I told Ray that sounded right.

Ray has been overwhelmed with work lately. He has something going on at work that has kept his mind on the job, even at home. On the drive home from our session, Ray told me that when we got home he wanted me naked and ready to be pleased. I asked Ray what he had in mind. He told me that it was something he wanted to do for me. My mind went everywhere.

When we got home I started getting undressed before we even got out of the car. I was excited to find out what Ray wanted to do to please me. By the time we got into the house I was almost fully undressed. Ray kissed me, passionately, which caught me off guard. He then told me that he wanted to bathe me. I liked where his mond was going. Ray drew me a very hot bath and Ray bathed me like he did on our first date.

I asked Ray what had brought all of that on him, where the thought had come from. Ray told me that we only live once and we should take advantage of every moment as if it were our last. Ray said that was how he perceived living in the moment. Ray played with me in the bath like we were teen agers. He seemed so happy to be able to bathe me and massage me in the bath, and to play with me. I really liked that.

When the water cooled, Ray toweled me off and led me to our bedroom. Ray had me lie down and he proceeded to go down on me. And he stayed there for some time. Ray also kissed me everywhere. I wondered where this part of Ray had come from, but no matter where that part of Ray had come from, I was enjoying what was happening at that very moment.

Ray and I ended up lying together, cuddling. Ray let me massage him between his legs. He never got hard, but he said he liked me rubbing him. Ray said that he had work to do, at work, and would probably have to work Saturday,which is today. So,I kissed Ray and told him to get some sleep and we could do more of what we'd done tomorrow. Ray kissed me, passionately, again and rolled over. Ray and I made love yesterday morning and last night. Both times I felt closer to Ray than I have before.

So, last night, after Ray had gone to bed, I got the text from Scott, "I want to be with you right here right now!" I texted Scott back asking him where he was. Scott texted back saying that he was on his way home from getting some truck back on the road. I texted Scott back asking him how I could be with him right where he was, and asked again where he was exactly. Scott texted back saying haha, then said he would love to see me. I texted back that I would love to see him, too.

I texted Scott and asked him if I could call him. In return, Scott called me. I could hear the wind through Scott's phone. I could tell he was driving. Scott told me that he had been thinking about me, and had an overwhelming desire to take the next step with me. I asked Scott what that next step was, to him. Scott told me that we hadn't been totally physical, and he wanted us to be, now. Scott asked me if I was busy and I told him that I wasn't.

Scott asked me how therapy went. I told Scott I wasn't sure. Scott asked me what had happened during out therapy session. I told him that Margaret had asked me a lot about my past and ended our session by telling me and Ray to live in the moment for the next week. Scott said that him calling was a great thing then. I asked him what he meant. Scott said that I had an opportunity to live in the now, right now.

Scott said that he had this book that he's had since he was a kid called, "Be Here Now." Scott said he wasn't sure who it was by, but it was an amazing book. I asked Scott to tell me what it was about. Scott said the book taught him how to live in the here and now. He said that he didn't remember a lot of the book, but what he did remember was something near the beginning of the book that said something along the lines of "Except you become like little children, you can't get to heaven . . . unless you start over." Scott thought for a moment then continued, telling me that the book continued by saying, "You have to be a trusting, surrendered being, and unless you do, you can never get to heaven.

I asked Scott what that meant. Scott told me that it meant that I needed to meet him. I giggled. I asked Scott where he was, and he told me he was in Castle Rock, about thirty minutes from my house. I asked Scott if he wanted to come to our house. Scott said that wasn't a bad idea. Scott then asked me about this Margaret person we were seeing. He wanted to know where we found her and why we were seeing her.

I told Scott that we had found her through a friend. Margaret is in a poly relationship, and has been for a couple decades. She has years of experience with people in poly/swinger/BDSM/ gay lifestyles, etc. I told Scott that Margaret came highly recommended, although she can be a bit confusing. I admitted to Scott that we'd only seen Margaret twice so far, but that Ray and I had made love twice since seeing her and both times were quite pleasing.

Scott asked again why we were seeing Margaret. I told Scott that me and Ray had some problems, mostly in communicating, and we thought that therapy might help us out. Scott asked me if I thought I could use some Scott therapy, and I said yes. I was still intrigued about Scott's knowledge of this book he said he had. I asked Scott to tell me more about the here and now book.

Scott said that the book was kind of a hippie book, but it was kind of cool. He said that the book was full of paradoxes, stuff that made you think, but it taught you not to think as well. Scott said that him and me planning on seeing each other wasn't being in the here and now, what we felt was. Scott asked me where I was right then. I told him I was in my living room, sitting on the couch. Scott said, "That is where your body is, but that is not where you are."

I told Scott that I didn't know he was that deep of a person. Scott stated to me that neither of us really knew each other. And I had to agree. Scott said that I might be on my couch, but he wanted to know where my mind was. I told Scott that my mind was in a very good place. Scott asked me what I was thinking about. I told him that I was thinking about him and me being together. Scott said, "That is where you are."
 
(Part two)

Scott and I talked the entire time he drove to our house. While we talked, Scott talked about the here and now book and wondering why me and Ray felt that we needed therapy. Scott told me that Ray seemed like a really cool guy. I told Scott that the therapy was a lot more for me, as well as for me and Ray. Scott told me that he had been thinking alot about me, and that he actually missed seeing me, or even texting with me. I liked that.

Scott got to my house around 1:45AM. I was still undressed. Scott liked that I answered the door totally naked. Scott looked at me and said that I was beautiful. Scott added that he liked where he was right here, right now. I agreed and told Scott that I liked where he was right then. Scott asked me where Ray was. I told him that Ray was asleep, in our bedroom. I told Scott that Ray had to be up in just a few hours. Scott said that the bedroom was probably out. I nodded.

I told Scott that we had other bedrooms. Scott asked me about the flokati rug that I always talked about. I led Scott to the library and showed him our flokati rug. Scott told me that the flokati rub was a good place to hang out. A I agreed. I told Scott that I had always wanted to make love with Ray on the flokati rug, but that we never had. Scott said he felt honored to help make that happen, with him.

Scott let me take his clothes off of him and we layed on the flokati rug, together. Last night was the first time since Ray and I bought the rug a year ago that I have actually layed on it naked, and it felt awesome. Ray got on top of me and told me that he liked where we were right here right now. I agreed.

Ray and I don't talk much during sex, but this morning Scott and I talked the entire time we made love. Scott asked me how I felt, what I was thinking, and he told me what he was thinking. I really liked what was happening, and not just physically. I asked Scott what made him decide to go all the way with me. He told me that he had an overwhelming desire to just be with me. And I thanked him for taking the initiative.

I told Scott that I had imagined our first time making love differently. Scott said that it is what it is, and he liked what it was. I agreed. I told Scott that he was the first man I had ever made love to and talked to and with the entire time. Scott said he liked that we could do both, make love and get to know each other better. I agreed again.

I had lost track of time. The next thing I knew Ray was up and about. I called out to Ray and he came into the library. Ray said good morning to Scott and bent down and kissed me. Ray asked Scott what time he had gotten to the house. Scott said he had gotten to our house around 2:AM or so. Ray just said, "Cool."

Ray kissed me again and told me he was going to take a shower. I told Ray that I loved him and he left the room. Scott kissed me, then asked me where I was. I told Scott that I was still with him. Scott told me that Ray was a special guy, and that I should feel lucky to have him. I told Scott that Ray was/is a great guy. Scott told me that Ray is also a very lucky guy to have me. I told Scott that I was lucky to have him and Ray.

Scott asked me what time it was, and I told him I didn't know. Scott told me that when you are in the moment, often time slips away from you. I agreed. I told Scott that it had to be at least 8 or 9:AM because Ray was up. Scott told me that if it was that late that he had to go. I asked him why, and Scott told me that he had a guy showing up around 9:30, at his shop, to have his clutch replaced.

I heard Ray again and called out asking Ray what time it was. Ray yelled back that it was eight o'clock. I kissed Scott and told him that he had time. He agreed. Scott got off of me and stood up. Scott looked at me and asked me if I wanted to spend a little time with Ray before he left for work. I said yes. Scott and I walked into the kitchen where Ray was making himself a cup of coffee.

Ray turned around and looked at me and Scott. Ray asked us if we'd had a good time. we both said that we had. Ray said, "So you two finally made love, all the way." We both nodded. Scott told Ray that we had talked most of the night. I told Ray that I thought I had a better understanding of what Margaret was talking about as far as living in the moment. Ray asked me to elaborate.

I told Ray that Scott and I started making love around 2:AM and we had no idea how long we'd been making love, and then we heard him walking around the house. Ray thanked Scott for coming over. Scott said it wasn't a problem. Scott told Ray that he was very happy to have met both of us. Scott told Ray that we were like no other couple he'd ever met. Scoitt then told Ray that whatever we were going to therapy for, that he hoped that it would help. Ray told Scott that him coming over was a big help.

Ray told Scott to look at me and Scott holding hands. So, he did. Ray told Scott that he loves me and that he loves to see me happy. Scott clenched my hand and kissed me, then he told Ray that he was a very special person. Ray thanked Scott for saying that. Ray then asked Scott if he loved me. Scott looked at me, then back at Ray and told him that he had deep feelings for me. I liked hearing that. Scott told Ray that love is so often said, and that love doesn't mean a lot anymore. Scott told Ray that he felt that being loving was more important than being in love. Ray nodded and said that was pretty deep.

Ray got dressed and left for work. Ray kissed me and shook Scott's hand and thanked Scott again for coming over. Scott told Ray again that it wasn't a problem. Scott told Ray he hoped that he had a good day, and he thanked Ray for being who he is. Ray cocked his head and told Scott that he appreciated that.

After Ray left for work,I told Scott that I liked Scott therapy. Scott told me he liked Debbie therapy, too. I told Scott that the therapy I got with him was much more effective than both the sessions I'd had with Margaret. Scott told me that he was supplimental therapy, and that he thought that me and Ray still needed to see Margaret. I agreed, but I also told Scott that I thought that I would need a lot more Scott therapy. He agreed.

After Scott left, I thought about a lot of the stuff that Scott and I talked about while we made love. I remembered Scott asking me, several times, what I was thinking, where my mind was at and what I was feeling. And each time I told him that I was in my happy place, a place that felt really good. Scott left, but I still felt him in me, and not just between my legs.

I thought to myself, "Where am I, right here, right now?" And I answered myself, "I am in a very happy place. I feel that I let my past disappear for a while. And it felt really good to be able to do so." I think that Scott really helped me understand what Margaret may have been telling me and Ray to do. And I thought about Ray, and how he had been this morning as well as when Roy was here last.

When Roy was here last, Ray ate lunch and didn't even want to watch me and Roy. And this morning Ray was good with me and Scott spending the night together. I thought to myself, when I thought about Ray, that Ray is a pretty incredible guy. And I am lucky to have him in my life. I also thought to myself that I am going to try to stay in the moment as much as I can. I like it.
 
Debbie I adore you

So let me wade in with some canned, old moldy philosophic manure.

There is no past.

All there is you your present illusion of what you think happened in the past. You make that up instant to instant right now and decide each time how you choose to feel about that.

The exact same thing is true about the future, except we tend to make up more fun stuff, like "If George Clooney AND Brad Pitt...." Sort of fantasies, but we also do the "what if Ray turns into my 2nd husband or suddenly realizes all the horrible things "I" know about myself and doesn't love me anymore.

It is not so much about unpacking baggage, as coming to the realization you are carrying bags, which you have zero need for. Therapy LOOKS like it takes a long time because our subconscious minds have so much invested. I mean You collected All this baggage! What do you mean you don't need it?!?!

Often it will be some simple sounding, totally silly question, you go home and chew on it for a bit and ah ha, bam right in one instant, you CHOOSE to drop the bags and Be Here Now.

Thank your subconscious for doing such a great job collecting all this stuff and doing its very best to protect you and make your life better, because that is exactly what it has been doing.

Forgive yourself for wasting all this time and energy hauling around all this baggage. Unconditionally. It was not a waste of time. You did not waste anytime. There never was any time. there has only been now and now and now and Right Now.

Forgive yourself, for standing off at the side of the party, holding these bags, tapping your foot and wondering when you are going to get to dance.

I am not going to recommend you Accept Ray, just the way he is. Embrace Ray just the way he is. Celebrate Ray just the way he is. Help Ray be even more just the way he is.

The real question is "If you got to have exactly what you want right now, who would be wrong?"

This is certified bullshit from a certified asshole.

Thank you so much for letting me hear your story. It has touched me to the bottom of my heart. I surrender.
 
Debbie, the book Be Here Now is a classic and was written by Ram Dass.

The thing is, when you are sitting there asking yourself questions, you are not really being present - you are in your head just talking to yourself. "Being here now" - alive and awake in each present moment - means you are attentive and aware of your surroundings, the dynamics of interactions, your emotional state, other people's attitudes, things like that, and are able to recognize old patterns of thinking and reacting that get in your way. Being truly present enables you to respond appropriately to every situation instead of just falling into the default mechanical reactions that we all do. It's something we have to keep practicing because so many things in life pull us out of the present moment. And yes, it can also mean living each moment as if it was your last, because in actuality, this moment of now is all we really have.

You might also like the books Working On Yourself Doesn't Work by Ariel and Shya Kane (a book about how to start living in the moment, written in the late 90s), and The Handbook to Higher Consciousness by Ken Keyes (another old classic from the 70s, no longer in print but you can find used copies).
 
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Dickdomin said:
I am not going to recommend you Accept Ray, just the way he is. Embrace Ray just the way he is. Celebrate Ray just the way he is. Help Ray be even more just the way he is.
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Your post was beautifully worded, and you told me what you would not recommend.

What I want to know is what you would recommend.
 
Sounds like things are going pretty well at the moment. I like the inspiration the therapy has empowered so far.
 
When Ray got home yesterday, he asked how my day had been. I told him that after Scott left that Tom had come over to the house. I told Ray that Tom wanted to expand my disk space in my hard drive. Ray asked if that was an innuendo, I said yes.

Ray asked me what Tom had to say. I told Ray that Tom had a lot to say. And so did I. Ray asked me what I meant. I asked Ray if he knew that Tom was a Buddhist. Ray said that he and Tom had talked about it to some length. I told Ray that both Scott and Tom talked the whole time they made love to me. And I liked it.

Ray told me that he was glad that my day turned out as it did, and that I seemed to be very happy. I told Ray that I was happy, and that I was happy that he was home. I told Ray about the book that Scott had told me about and Ray left the room and walked down the hall. Ray walked through the billiard room and into the "man cave." When Ray emerged from the cave, he had a book in his hands, the same book that Scott had talked about.

Ray handed me the book and asked, "This one?" I nodded and flipped through the pages. I was surprised that the book wasn't printed like most books are. It's a bit hippie looking. Ray told me that he's had that book for years and had read it a few times. And he was glad to know that Scott had as well.

Ray told me that what he learned most, and he wasn't sure if it was from any book, was that he learned to accept inadequacies, to see them as part of the whole, to understand that even in perfection there is imperfection. I told Ray that I thought that what Margaret had started was more communication than we'd had in years. Ray asked me if making love with Scott meant something to me. I said it did. He asked me what it meant to me.

I told Ray that the lovemaking that Scott and I shared was more than just physical. It was more spiritual. It was something beyond time and space. It was like nothing I had ever experienced before. Ray then said, "And with Tom, this time?" I told Ray that because we talked so much during our lovemaking that time escaped us. Even the sex with Tom was more than just physical. Ray smiled and asked me how much of the sex I remembered. I had to think about that. And I was surprised at how much I didn't remember.

Ray smiled again and told me that what I had experienced was what a baby experiences with a mother. To the on looker there are two people, but to the baby, the mother is a part of him or herself. So, to the baby there is no other, there is only oneness. I said, "Okay." Ray kind of laughed. Then Ray said, "When you were with Scott and Tom, and time got away from you, it was because when you were with them time didn't exist." Ray said, "All that existed was you and them." And I had to agree.

Ray asked me to sit down on the floor with him. So, I did. Ray told me to close my eyes and put my hands out in front of me. So, I did. Ray placed his palms against mine and asked me what I felt. I told Ray that I felt his hands against mine. Then Ray asked me again what I felt. I opened my eyes and asked Ray what he meant. Ray told me to close my eyes again and tell him what I was feeling. I told Ray that I wasn't sure what he was trying to get me to say. Ray leaned forward, hugged me, gave me a peck on the lips and told me that he loved me.

Ray told me after he kissed me that when our hands were against each other, that we were two people sitting on the floor with our hands against each other. I agreed. Ray asked me how long we had our hands pressed against each other's. I told him that it was less than a minute. Ray said to me that what we had done was physical. I agreed. Ray kissed me again and asked me what I just felt. I told Ray that I felt him kiss me. Ray just shook his head. I wasn't sure what Ray was trying to get at. And it has taken me this long to realize that Ray was asking me what I felt, inside. And I messed that up.

I asked Ray what he wanted for dinner last night. Ray said he was in the mood for breakfast. So, Ray cooked us up some bacon and hash browns, french toast and eggs. Ray isn't normally a big eater, but when it comes to breakfast food, he loves his breakfast food. As Ray cooked, we talked in the kitchen. I asked Ray how it made him feel that I had such amazing experiences with Scott and Tom. Ray told me that experiences like that are often very rare, and that he was glad that we have friends who are not unlike us in that they are above the common people who never know what living and loving is all about.

Ray said that when anyone has an experience like I had with both Scott and Tom it is a peek into God. Ray said that those kind of experiences are spiritual, they go beyond the physical and into something unexplainable. Ray said that when you have sex, but you have more than just sex, that sex becomes nothing more than a vehicle. It is the experience that takes place, and no one is there when it happens. Ray told me that when I was with Scott that neither of us were there, were weren't, only the experience was. I told Ray that he'd lost me. Ray smiled and told me that I had lost myself, and that was a good thing.

While Ray and I ate last night, we watched The Breakfast Club, fitting since we were eating breakfast for dinner. At the end of the movie Ray told me that The Breakfast Club was one of the best movies ever made. I agreed that it was well made. Ray asked me if I listened to what was being said at the end of the movie. I told him that I listened. Ray said that what was said was more than words. I asked him what he meant. Ray told me that what was said at the end of the movie was an explanation of who people were perceived to be , but not who they were. And I agreed.

After we ate, Ray told me that he thought that me and Scott and me and Tom need to spend more time together. I asked him why. And Ray asked me why not. I think I have a good start on this whole living in the moment thing, but I think that me and Ray still have along way to go.
 
Lost luggage

Well, this therapist clearly sucks!!!! LOL

Poor ray and Debbie went home with these huge suitcases just stuffed to the brim, ready to do some serious unpacking and getting down to work and as best I can get. Totally lost their luggage!

Debbie seems like she remembers she had bags, but is having trouble keeping her mind on them and Ray sounds like he dropped acid with Ram Dass.

For you folks who don't know who he is go google him. Just an awesome guy.

Now here I am sitting here with this gigantic shirt eating grin wondering how I am going to get back to taking life seriously.

I absolutely adore these people.

Debbie go dancing. Ray is already there. Grab hold of each other and just dance.

Thank you so much for being a part of my universe.
 
But will their luggage come looking for them? Only when they have confronted Vader, a Jedi can they be. ;)
 
Last night I had a friend over for dinner and to play pool with us. I have known Maria for about 15 years. We recently became friends again after not being friends for about 5 years. The reason she ended our friendship 5 years ago was because Ray had brought up that he wanted to know what breast milk tasted like since he never got the chance to find out when his ex was pregnant. That repulsed Maria and that ended our friendship for 5 years.

Ray and Maria were in teh kitchen and Maria had brought up that she hated men that cheat, and that started Ray on one of his things where he drills someone about what they really think.

Ray asked Maria if she ever thought about the why behind the why when people cheat, and if she ever thought that maybe there was something mental, rather than just physical, going on when people cheat. Then Ray went to asking Maria what she would do if she was with a man and he asked her to have sex with another man. Maria said that to please her man that she would probably roll with it, but she would be afraid of enjoying the other man too much.

Ray stayed on this line of thinking for a while. He got Maria to admit that she had been with men who wanted to take raunchy pictures of her, and she let them. Eventually Maria told us of a couple she knew that asked her to join them for a threesome, and she ended her friendship with them right then. Ray was treading on dangerous waters last night, and it scared me.

Maria is very "Christian." She is also very nieve. What got me the most last night was when Ray asked Maria if I told her that it was okay to have sex with Ray, how would she feel. Maria's response was, "You don't do that to friends."

Luckily Maria didn't let what Ray had talked with her about ruin our relationship, again. I was scared, though.

While we were playing pool, Ray made some mention about the song, "Mr. Big." Maria asked Ray if I called him Mr.Big. And Ray told Maria that that could/would never happen. I was waiting for Ray to say something that would really hit Maria deep, but Ray just said, "I may not be big, but Debbie likes what I have." And Maria said, "And that's the way it should be."

Ray has always found Maria to be very attractive. Ray has told me numerous times that he would love to see her gang banged some day. Ray colored Maria's hair for her last night. He told me after she left that he loved being able to wash her hair and massage her scalp. He also said that he liked that Maria was comfortable enough to take off her T-shirt, leaving only her bra on, while he colored her hair.

After Maria left, Ray told me that he wished that he could see Maria totally naked. I asked Ray what about Maria turns him on so much. Ray said that because Maria is so vanilla and nieve, that there is just something about her that screams gang bang me. I told Ray that his thoughts of Maria like that are going to have to remain a fantasy. Ray agreed.

Ray can be so spiritual at times, but then, at other times, Ray can be so, I don't know.

I walked Maria to her car when she left last night. As we walked to her car, Maria said to me that Ray is a strange bird sometimes. I agreed. I like Maria, but not the way Ray likes her, or wishes she was.

When I walked back in the house Ray was already in the bedroom. I asked Ray if he wanted to play, but he said he was tired. I knew Ray was tired because he fell asleep while I was rubbing him.

I love Ray and I love Maria, but last night was a bit uncomfortable for me, as well as for Maria. Maria has always been very mono, and very religious. And I don't think that will ever change, although I think that Ray will always want her to.
 
Will you ever tell Maria about your adventures with other men?
 
Very religious

DebbieandRay said:
Maria is very "Christian." She is also very nieve. What got me the most last night was when Ray asked Maria if I told her that it was okay to have sex with Ray, how would she feel. Maria's response was, "You don't do that to friends."


I asked Ray what about Maria turns him on so much. Ray said that because Maria is so vanilla and nieve, that there is just something about her that screams gang bang me. .
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I had a couple with a super religious wife who was all about submitting and obeying her husband.

His wanted her to not just domme him but cuckold him.

She was all about being nice nice nazi.

Now our relationship developed over more than a year and during an intense philosophical discussion she agreed it was her "duty" to give her husband what he wanted.

I explained when she was nice, she was in fact being cruel and that to be Nice to him she needed to be strict.

Now he had bought her a set of ten massages by me for her birthday and I am very skilled at the excitement to happy ending. I also because of my training in psychology was very aware of her limits, but by the fourth massage I left her dripping wet, aching for more and the slapping part of massage was very hard to tell apart from a spanking.

During dinner with wine she admitted she was attracted to me sexually, she was also very horny. So when the dinner was over, and she got up to clear the table, I somewhat ordered her husband to do that.

He was very "Yes sir" submissive to me. I could see a sparkle in his wife's eyes as I kept asking if he'd cleaned the kitchen fully.

While this was going on, I explained that for his wife to submit to her husband's wishes, she was going to need to be more strict and demanding of him. That when she did this she was pleasing him and pleasing God.

Now this did not happen in a few minutes, but this discussion had been going on for months. Finally her husband came back in and told me everything was cleaned and the dishes were put away.

I asked if he'd cleaned the stove and he said No. I made him bring me my bag which has a bamboo scraper for removing dead skin. I then had him pull down his pants, bend over the end of the couch so his face was near his wife and gave him five good swats. I could tell she would not mind a few of those herself, but she was interested and eyes shining when her husband kissed my hand and thanked me and went back and cleaned the stove. I left her to stew on what had been said and done.

The following week it took her to the edge. I purposely did not touch her "there" until she was squirming. I told her husband to draw a bath (huge tub and deep)

He and I carried her in. While I held her cradled in my arms I told her husband to loosen my drawstring and when I was nude I stepped into the tub and lowered her into the hot water with me. Told her husband to prepare dinner, but to bring us a bottle of wine in ice and light candles. All of which was done with yes sir.

So to not get too pornographic here, allow me to say, dinner was served later in their bed with his wife and I nude in post coital bliss, with him still clothed feeding her. He was loving, gentle and thanked me. I spent the night.

At some point she told him to come to bed (after dishes and cleaning kitchen floor.) He ended up on a mat on the floor on her side of the bed.

He burned the toast the following morning, which pissed her off. So I handed her the bamboo scraper and her husband knelt on the bed and got ten (my choice because the first five were not strong enough)

It did take a few months to get her to the gangbang, but religious repression coupled with natural human sexuality and a devious manipulative mind who can twist and argument into stunning origami can produce the most interesting results. The stricter she was, the happier and more eager to please her he was.

She did not violate the sanctity of her wedding bed, because her husband brought all the men and was present when they made love to her. She came to see it as a form of massage and her husband was happy.

Maybe you and Ray, with a few of your dom lovers could take it on as a long term project. Given Ray's talent at massage, my suggestion would be a ladies Spa day at your house.

Does she know of your other lovers?
Get a book on massage that describes the four hands technique and Ray can help train Mike and Tom Roy et al in how to do it really well with a subtle build.

Jesus said, I bring you love (not and keep your knees together)
God pitch Adam and Eve out of the garden for getting dressed.

Any clever perv with a good working knowledge of the Bible can make a gangbang almost seem like it is the Eleventh commandment.

If she is screaming gangbang to Ray, and I suspect Ray is an incredibly enlightened man, she just needs the support, love and a very slow build of a few Spa days for Maria and Debbie..

I also think if she is screaming gangbang to Ray, the universe has connected her to you and her to Ray for her to interpret the Bible in a more liberal and loving rather than anal retentive and repressive way as is so currently popular.

Something to think on
 
:eek:

I'm going to write the xkcd guy's "what if" addy and ask him if he can confirm that as a scientific fact. He didn't answer my last three questions, but I bet he'll go for this one for sure.

And will someone tell Dickdomin we're supposed to be encouraging DebbieandRay to become *less* kinky?
 
Giggling at cantaloupe juice. I kinda know what you mean but I always thought if you mixed cows milk with water then added sugar you'd be pretty close lol.

It's not very good in coffee though... Just saying ;-)
 
Wow, what if it was coffee instead of cantaloupe juice? I'm just saying.
 
I don't think Cantaloupe juice would work in coffee either.

Imagine giving coffee to babies? They'd really never sleep then.
 
I don't know, I heard it once and then tried the two side by side and it was pretty close - it's nearly tasteless. I imagine it depends on what mom had been eating :p.

I know a few ADHD kids that coffee would have worked great, as it works to calm them down.
 
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