How do I even start to explain??

You are not a bad person for being polyamorous. I can reassure you.

Are you seeking that reassurance from a husband who cannot give it at this time? Are you able to reassure yourself? Who do you need this reassurance from most?

I am able to reassure myself at times. It's very up and down but I am still at the beginning of the path to accepting myself. Mostly I find it helpful to get reassurance from like-minded people. Everyone needs a tribe.
.

He says this? What does it mean? That he feels vicitmized? Or that he sees you hurting and he does not want to see it? Do not ask him now.

Yes he has said this to me several times. As far as I can tell yes he feels like he is the victim of my terrible behaviour and that he doesn't care how I feel about the situation at all because I am the perpetrator.

I shall stay quiet, continue to show him that I love him because I do, and focus on accepting myself and knowing myself.
 
Yes. Stay silent til the appointment. Just a few more days. Concentrating on accepting and knowing yourself sounds more productive at this time than getting into fusspot with him again.

It sounds like he thinks you are doing this TO him rather than it simply being part of your journey.

Galagirl
 
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I was mostly referring to Max getting a little bit personal towards Mags. I understand we are all different, as I said; and we all see things a different way, and I appreciate that massively. But I don't think personal attacks are necessary. Maybe it was just the way I read it.

(off topic)

No, MightyMax seems to hate me and everything I say. S/he always has. As for that dig about my ex (who I am firmly convinced has Don Juan Narcissistic Personality Disorder, a form of psychopathology), get over it. I broke up with him almost a year ago. It wasn't his "lifestyle" I objected to, it was his poor choices in whom to date, and how to date. Drama galore in that triad with the newbie poly married couple, jealousies, multiple breakups and reunions, the angst of which bled over into our time together-- bleh. I truly questioned his taste, not to mention his poly ethics, so realized we were not a match.

(back on topic)

We are not Christian bashing here. I get so bored with Christians who consider Christianity to be this protected monolith that should never be questioned. I am against a certain form of Christianity that is called evangelical/fundamentalist/non-denominational/Bible church. I mean, it's fine for the practitioners. Whatever gets you through the night, and all that.

It's when they insist on forcing their beliefs onto others who don't need it and for whom it doesn't resonate, and into politics, that I get pissed off and fight back.

I have read the entire Bible twice and read many of the most important books seven times or more. I laugh when fundies tell me, "Just read the Bible," and I will convert. Nope. And I know lots of Biblically literate atheists... formerly raised Christian, who took the time to carefully study the Bible and realize, while it is a valuable piece of antique literature, it doesn't really tell them anything about "God" that would cause them to become an evangelical Christian.

You might as well tell me to read Greek myths and instantly become a Zeus or Athena devotee. Or read Chinese lit and immediately bow down to Kwan Yin.

One thing I did do, that I found really exciting, when I was immersed in Bible study, was to learn everything I could about Asherah, the great goddess of the Hebrews, who was for hundreds of years considered Yahweh's consort, until Her worship was wiped out by King Josiah in 600 BCE. (The word Asherah is mistranslated "poles" in many Bibles, since her image was carved onto upright poles of wood.) You read of Her high places and groves in the Old Testament. She was usually worshiped outside, a god of the people. But her image did stand in the House of El (the Jewish Temple) in Jerusalem, for hundreds of years, as well.

The Levite nobility, and priestly caste, wanted everyone to quit worshiping their "foreign" gods (which were not foreign at all) locally, and come worship, and most importantly, tithe, in Jerusalem. This was a hardship to poor farmers, but the nobles told them God (Yahweh/El/Elohim) demanded it. The tithes were given to the upper classes, to eat (only the best "unblemished" livestock), to season their foods, to wear (only the finest wool), to accessorize their fine outfits with gold, silver and gems, so they didn't have to work the land. And the gold dishes the nobles used, the ivory embellished homes, the golden Temple vessels, all gotten from slaves and serfs, and in trade for the farmers' "sacrificed" fine wool, grains, and other goods. So godly!

Another aspect of the feminine divine I discovered in Bible study, was Sophia, a Gnostic spirit embodied in the 2 Marys of the New Testament. I think of her as part of the Trinity of the Christians. Shouldn't Christ have both a father AND a mother?
 
Cool stuff Mags.

Re:
"I get so bored with Christians who consider Christianity to be this protected monolith that should never be questioned."

Amen.

Re:
"It's when they insist on forcing their beliefs onto others who don't need it and for whom it doesn't resonate, and into politics, that I get pissed off and fight back."

Amen to that as well.
 
Yes. Stay silent til the appointment. Just a few more days. Concentrating on accepting and knowing yourself sounds more productive at this time than getting into fusspot with him again.

It sounds like he thinks you are doing this TO him rather than it simply being part of your journey.

Galagirl

Yes I think that is how he sees it. Which makes me quite sad really as I don't want to cause him pain. Ever. But I also can't deny how I feel. Counselling tomorrow.
 
You are experiencing changes but you are not doing it TO him like you are out to get him or something.

It is HIS thinking that is causing him pain. He is the one thinking you are doing it to him. The one who changes his mind/thinking is him. Not you.

Hang in there. One more day to go.

Galagirl
 
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1) You diagnosed your ex based on your hurt feelings after he wouldn't do what he wanted you to. I can't express on how absolutely fucked up it is to go around casually diagnosing people with mental health issues just because they weren't a great partner. It's really wrong and I think it's shameful that this site has tolerated it in the way that they have. That's a separate issue though.

2) I'm not a Christian, just like I'm not black. I can recognise racism against black people though, just like I can recognise when someone has an obvious prejudice against Christians. It doesn't matter how many books you've read on the matter, you bash Christians, and that not only isn't right, I firmly believe that it is not helpful to this situation at all. I'm not the only person who feels that there has been evidence of bashing, either.
 
1) You diagnosed your ex based on your hurt feelings after he wouldn't do what he wanted you to. I can't express on how absolutely fucked up it is to go around casually diagnosing people with mental health issues just because they weren't a great partner. It's really wrong and I think it's shameful that this site has tolerated it in the way that they have. That's a separate issue though.

2) I'm not a Christian, just like I'm not black. I can recognise racism against black people though, just like I can recognise when someone has an obvious prejudice against Christians. It doesn't matter how many books you've read on the matter, you bash Christians, and that not only isn't right, I firmly believe that it is not helpful to this situation at all. I'm not the only person who feels that there has been evidence of bashing, either.

Fuck Christians, some people get tired of sitting silently in deference to the beliefs of the most popular flavor mythology at the moment.
 
*sigh* not the point of this thread at all...
I get it, we all have opinions. Some stronger than others and that's okay. It's based on your own experience. My experience of my old church is that the people there, including my husband, are mostly all wonderfully loving people. But they believe what they believe and that's okay. I used to believe it too but I have a different truth now. I would have got this response to polyamory regardless of their spiritual beliefs I think. I just need support through this turmoil, certainly no Christian bashing is necessary.

As far as I can gather (and I don't know her of course), Mags' opinion comes from both painful experience (hers and others) and research. We're all different. And I appreciate her point of view for those reasons.

Thank you GG and Karen for the encouragement. I am thankful that I found this place.
 
The one who changes his mind/thinking is him. Not you.

Absolutely. This is why you can't and don't even have to manage anyone else's "journey of awakening" but your own. Stay on your path and know that your truth comes from the source of all that is good - for everyone. We're all connected, even when we seem broken, and it's only in looking back from a much wider perspective that we can see how following the beacon of our joy led our loved ones to find more of theirs, as well. There are so many wonderful quotes from the Bible (and many other ancient religious/spiritual sources) that echo this basic structure of how we all fit together, guided by the source of love.
 
Absolutely. This is why you can't and don't even have to manage anyone else's "journey of awakening" but your own. Stay on your path and know that your truth comes from the source of all that is good - for everyone. We're all connected, even when we seem broken, and it's only in looking back from a much wider perspective that we can see how following the beacon of our joy led our loved ones to find more of theirs, as well. There are so many wonderful quotes from the Bible (and many other ancient religious/spiritual sources) that echo this basic structure of how we all fit together, guided by the source of love.


Yes! This! Thank you
 
heh, Ecclesiastes is really depressing though!

First verse:

“Meaningless! Meaningless!”
says the Teacher.
“Utterly meaningless!
Everything is meaningless.”

And it just gets worse from there, lol
 
Just a reminder to all that slight tangents and challenging others' views are all acceptable here, but if the thread devolves into a heated argument, it will be locked. Please restrain from cursing at anyone or name-calling, and try to stay closer to the original topic.

Journey, once you post a thread in any forum here, except the "Life Stories & Blogs" section, you have no control over how the discussion goes. IOW, you don't own it, so you cannot always expect to steer it the way you want it to go. You do have more control and protection in the Blogs forum. If you would rather have a thread where you'll be able to muse on things and get responses, but also have a moderator delete problematic or off-topic posts, please start a blog thread in that section.

Thank you all for your cooperation in remaining civil to each other.
 
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My experience of my old church is that the people there, including my husband, are mostly all wonderfully loving people. But they believe what they believe and that's okay. I used to believe it too but I have a different truth now. I would have got this response to polyamory regardless of their spiritual beliefs I think. I just need support through this turmoil, certainly no Christian bashing is necessary.

As far as I can gather (and I don't know her of course), Mags' opinion comes from both painful experience (hers and others) and research. We're all different. And I appreciate her point of view for those reasons.

While I have had experience with Christians who were... um, weird (like my ex SIL who jumped on the hood of my niece's car when she tried to leave), I do know plenty of others who are sweet, caring, give you the shirt off their back people. However, lurking behind their sweetness is that racism, homophobia and sexism they hear from their pulpits. They just don't seem to know any better. They are told not to watch TV, not to go to movies unless they are G or PG rated, to stay off the internet. To not hang out with anyone who isn't from their church community. To listen to no music that isn't about God and Christ. They don't get out much, except to church related events. So, they are insulated from "new" ideas about culture, race, gender, sexual preference, etc.

Simple country folk? Yes. One friend of mine who is a transwoman was threatened with exorcism, and then kicked out of the house at 16. Another trans friend was emotionally abused by his Christian father and also kicked out at 16, and turned to prostitution to get by.
 
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My oldest brother is the nicest (and smartest) person you could ever meet ... except, in line with the church's teachings, he opposes SSM and everything to do with left-wing politics. So I do know how it is.
 
I'm not 100% convinced by the notion of "emotioal affairs" and "emotional infidelity" -- by whatever names. Nor am I even solidly 50% clear that such a construction is meaningful, valid and true.

Nor am I rabidly against the notion.

But I want to ask... Is it okay to deeply and profoundly love others platonically? Or would there be a gender barrier to whom we can love and how much, platonically?

And if the love is not purely "platonic," simply because there is a desire for physical or sexual contact--, is this desire a transgression? Or is only any acting on this desire a transgression?

I ask because I really doubt that anyone can simply decide not to have desire for physical / sexual contact ... while one CAN decide not to act upon such desire.

In any case, I'm a bit skeptical of the very notion of "emotional affairs".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emotional_affair

The Wikipeidia article (linked above) says: "While sexual infidelity can be written off as one partner seeking physical release outside of the relationship, an emotional affair can delegitimize the emotional bonds that make up the foundation of a relationship."

Delegitimze? Really?! Umm... how?
 
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Well I tend to take a forgiving view of affairs in general, and I think you have a problem any time a spouse has a friendship with someone of the opposite sex. At what point does friendship become an emotional affair?

I don't wanna say too much about it though, as I feel we really are straying off-topic. Perhaps the mods could move these last two posts into a new thread?
 
I am really interested in Rivers topic, and agree with Kev, lets get a new topic going, so that Journey can continue to get help in this one without it going off topic. Some of you know im anti church have being on their receiving end but ive resisted posting here because that is not helpful to Journey. There are other threads on here where we can do that.

:)
 
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